Debater Claims Protestant Canon Faces Same Evidence Problem as Saint Intercession
"Show me one father that has your canon. I can honestly say that they did not. Now, okay, so why are you imposing this on me? You're imposing the standard on me when you don't adhere to it yourself."
About this episode
Host Dr. James Coons of Modern Day Debate moderated a theological clash between Orthodox Christian Alex Warren and Protestant JP on whether praying to departed saints is of apostolic origin and clearly established in the pre-Nicene church. Warren opened by presenting six categories of evidence: Jewish rabbinical tradition citing prayers at Rachel's grave dating to 600 BC and Caleb praying to patriarchs around 1300 BC, Second Temple literature including 1 Enoch showing angelic intercession, the Hymn of the Three Youths invoking spiritual beings, biblical passages in Job and Psalms referencing saintly mediation, early church writings from Saint Hippolytus and the Passion of Saint Perpetua, and archaeological evidence from Roman catacombs and liturgical papyri from the 200s AD. JP countered that this evidence is insufficient to establish an apostolic doctrine, arguing no apostolic fathers or major church teachers for three centuries explicitly taught Christians to invoke departed saints. He repeatedly challenged Warren to name authoritative church fathers who taught the practice, dismissing liturgical inscriptions as insufficient to prove universal practice. Warren defended liturgical documents like the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus and Sub Tuum Praesidium as carrying equal authority to patristic writings since all bishops and fathers worshipped using these texts. The debate intensified over interpretation of Saint Irenaeus's Against Heresies, Origen's writings on supplication, and whether requesting information from departed saints constitutes necromancy. JP accused Warren of inconsistency in using Talmudic sources, while Warren challenged JP's evidentiary standard by pointing out no church father held the Protestant canon in the first three centuries. The exchange revealed fundamental differences over what constitutes authoritative evidence, whether departed believers are truly dead, and whether widespread practice requires explicit patristic endorsement.
Key takeaways
- Warren cited Jewish rabbinical tradition claiming Caleb prayed to departed patriarchs around 1300 BC and prayers at Rachel's grave from 600 BC based on first century Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel.
- JP argued no apostolic fathers or major pre-Nicene church teachers explicitly commanded Christians to invoke departed saints despite writing extensively about other common practices like prayer to God.
- Warren presented third century liturgical documents including Oxyrhynchus Papyrus and Sub Tuum Praesidium as authoritative proof since all bishops approved and used them in worship services.
- JP challenged Warren to produce clear patristic teaching on saint intercession while Warren countered that no church father held JP's Protestant biblical canon in the first three centuries either.
- The debaters clashed over Saint Hippolytus's commentary on Daniel, with Warren citing it as clear invocation of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego while JP dismissed it as allegorical language.
- JP accused the Orthodox position of affirming necromancy by asking departed saints for hidden knowledge while Warren rejected the characterization, defining necromancy as black magic to resurrect the dead.
- Warren argued the practice appears across the empire in Judea, Egypt, Carthage, Italy, Germany and Ethiopia in the pre-Nicene period, making it unlikely all regions adopted the same heresy simultaneously.