What happened in this episode?
Ezra Klein speaks with journalist Jasmine Sun about the fast-growing backlash to hyperscale AI data centres in the United States, following her reporting trip to Wisconsin and Michigan. Sun describes objections that go beyond noise, aesthetics and resource use, arguing that secrecy in siting negotiations—particularly non-disclosure agreements involving local officials—has fuelled distrust and helped online rumours outpace public process. She says Microsoft has stopped using NDAs in response to backlash and that other AI labs may follow.
The pair explore the material footprint of AI, with Sun arguing that while newer facilities often use closed-loop cooling that reduces water draw, electricity demand is substantial and may require new generation, likely gas in the near term. Sun also recounts local fears of “stranded assets” shaped by earlier megaproject disappointments, including Foxconn in Mount Pleasant, and describes a Michigan township dispute in which developers sued after a council voted against rezoning.
Klein and Sun connect the infrastructure fight to broader “AI populism”: scepticism that AI’s benefits justify its costs, anger at perceived elite imposition, and concern about labour displacement. Sun says many Silicon Valley figures privately expect AI to worsen inequality and entertains scenarios of a permanent underclass, while Klein questions the industry’s “race” framing and its policy implications. The discussion closes on geopolitics and regulation: Sun contrasts US politics with China’s tighter controls in some areas and dismisses claims that the US data-centre backlash is primarily a Chinese influence operation.
