In Defense of Elites, with Richard Hanania

Coleman Hughes interviews political scientist Richard Hanania about his new book Kakistocracy, which critiques right-wing populism as rule by the worst. The conversation begins with Hanania candidly discussing his past as an alt-right white identitarian from 2009-2010, revealed by HuffPost in 2023, and his controversial decision to apologize despite pressure from right-wing allies. Hanania defines populism not by specific policies but by status games—whether power derives from elite institutions or direct mass appeal. He argues Joe Rogan and Donald Trump exemplify populists who bypass traditional gatekeepers, while figures legitimized by institutions like Harvard or the New York Times represent elites. Drawing on political science research, Hanania presents data showing populist governments consistently underperform on economic growth and democratic stability, with Argentina and Venezuela as prime examples of long-term populist failure. He contends that while elites made high-profile errors on issues like defund the police and trans athletes, these represent perhaps 10% of cases—the other 90% of the time, expert consensus proves correct. Using Joe Rogan's podcast as an example, he catalogs false beliefs from vaccine misinformation to ancient lost civilizations that populist media promotes. Hanania attributes populism's global rise not to elite failures but to communications technology—24-hour cable news, internet, and social media—that democratized information and gave previously fringe views like 9/11 trutherism political representation. He reveals research showing many foreign policy experts lack basic qualifications like speaking relevant languages. The conversation explores why populism skews right-wing (immigration and crime views create larger elite-mass gaps than economics), whether figures like Bernie Sanders qualify as left-wing populists, and how Hanania's Palestinian Christian heritage informs his perspective on Middle East conflicts and social conformity in non-Western societies.

• Richard Hanania discloses his 2009-2010 involvement in alt-right white identitarianism, explaining his transformation and controversial 2023 apology after HuffPost exposure despite right-wing pressure to refuse.
• Hanania defines populism by status games rather than ideology, distinguishing figures like Trump and Rogan who derive power from mass appeal versus elites legitimized by institutions.
• Political science data shows populist governments consistently produce worse economic growth and democratic stability outcomes, with Argentina and Venezuela as long-term failure examples.
• Research reveals many foreign policy experts claiming Middle East expertise don't speak Arabic or Farsi, challenging Washington establishment credibility on international affairs.
• Hanania argues communications technology, not elite failures, drives global populism by democratizing information and giving fringe views like anti-vaccine positions political representation.
• While acknowledging elite errors on defund the police and trans athletes, Hanania contends experts remain correct 90% of the time, warning overcorrection toward anti-establishment thinking is dangerous.
• Polling data shows no correlation between populist attitudes in populations and populist political success, contradicting narratives that populism stems from legitimate grievances against elites.