Steven Bartlett hosts a three-way discussion with economist Steve Keen and commentator Konstantin Kisin ranging from polarisation and immigration to climate policy, war and artificial intelligence. Kisin argues economic stagnation and large-scale illegal migration are fuelling right-wing populism in Europe, and predicts rising risks of unrest if politics fails to course-correct. He proposes removing most welfare entitlements for non-citizens, claiming it would shift incentives and prompt voluntary departures.
The conversation turns into a sustained clash over macroeconomics and the climate response. Keen says capitalism is failing and blames mainstream economists for downplaying climate damage; he argues the crisis is now beyond policy repair, saying “it’s too late” and predicting breakdown of civilisation’s capacity within roughly the next decade, while also endorsing technocratic governance and even scrapping elections in favour of engineers. Kisin rejects global authoritarian coordination as unrealistic and instead advocates innovation in cheap, abundant low-carbon energy, alongside adaptation.
In a geopolitical segment, Kisin claims President Trump has “walked into a trap” with an Iran conflict and suggests the only political exit may be presenting a bad deal as victory; Keen says a long-term resolution would require the US to leave the Middle East. Both warn of cascading supply shocks, with Keen forecasting shortages in oil and fertiliser could drive a global famine.
They also dispute China’s model. Keen says he prefers China’s system over America’s; Kisin counters with arguments about repression and claims China routinely lies, including alleging Western intelligence broadly assesses Covid-19 originated from a Chinese lab. The episode ends on AI risk, with Kisin warning humans may become subordinate to a machine “species”.
During a dispute about climate policy and global coordination, Steve Keen says he would prefer technocratic rule by engineers over electoral politics. He presents this as a response to what he describes as political failure to act on ecological constraints.
Read this moment →Steve Keen argues that, in his view, Chinese cities show less homelessness and poverty than US cities and claims China offers certain freedoms Americans lack. Pressed by Steven Bartlett, Keen confirms he would choose a Chinese system over the American one, while acknowledging some speech constraints earlier in the exchange.
Read this moment →Konstantin Kisin says the core AI risk is creating an intelligence superior to humans, which would shift power away from people and towards machines. He argues that once a "superior species" exists, human agency becomes contingent on that system's preferences.
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