Grief Expert: The 6 Stages of Grief | David Kessler

Lewis Howes interviews grief author and educator David Kessler about grief as “a change we didn’t want”, and revisits the Kübler-Ross stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) alongside Kessler’s proposed sixth stage: meaning. Kessler describes the death of his younger son and recounts struggling, despite his professional background, to attend a grief group; he says acceptance alone felt insufficient and that meaning is “not in the horrible event” but in “who do we become after” it.

Howes links the discussion to his own history, saying he kept childhood sexual abuse secret for 25 years and found that speaking in a group setting helped unlock a longer healing process. Kessler frames grief as something that must be “witnessed” by others, and argues connection is central to recovery; he also discusses bargaining as a short-term coping mechanism that can become avoidance if prolonged.

The pair discuss triggers, with Kessler arguing that triggers can act as a “map” to unresolved pain, and he critiques approaches that focus on controlling external environments. On clinical boundaries, Kessler recommends professional assessment to distinguish grief from depression and claims many clinicians receive no formal grief education. Late in the episode, he warns that people may “give away our power” to institutions or AI, while also saying he has built an AI tool based on his own work to extend support when he is unavailable. The conversation ends with advice to seek support and maintain connection, alongside book and programme promotion.

• Kessler defines grief as “a change we didn’t want” and says the classic five stages can apply beyond bereavement to divorce, job loss and other disruptions.
• Kessler recounts the death of his younger son and describes reluctance to attend a grief group despite being a grief educator.
• He says acceptance can feel like a “low baseline” and argues for a sixth stage: meaning, framed as how a person changes after loss.
• Howes says he did not disclose childhood sexual abuse for 25 years and found group disclosure and later public disclosure reduced its control over him.
• Kessler argues triggers can be used as a guide to unresolved pain and criticises attempts to manage distress primarily by controlling external environments.
• Kessler advises psychiatric assessment to distinguish grief from clinical depression and claims clinicians may receive no formal grief education.
• Kessler says he has built an AI tool trained on his work to extend grief support, while warning against “giving away our power” to AI or leaders.